| Author |
Message |
Roger Abell
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
Hey, check this ancient KB out
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;156484
as it indicates that (then) perl multithreaded apps were known to
show desktop heap leaks if processes terminated prematurely.
Anyway, I had to poke around as the being hard wired seemed
unlikely - undoc'd maybe, but hardwired no. I think this little
bit of info published for terminal server may be the light . . .
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;840342
I would be pretty cautious about fooling with this until you have
determined that it is not actually a misbehavior that is causing
excess heap consumption, and until you have figured answer to
the next . . .
However, notice that your issue may be the number of desktops
consumed, making you run of the buffer pool, rather than any
one desktop running out of its allocation. In fact, this might
seem more likely given some of what you have said about that
wall you run into.
For IIS specific issues take a look at
cgi apps in IIS pre-v6
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;217202
conserving desktop consumption in IIS 6
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;831135
Other related KBs uncovered :
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;142676
which indicates use of the third SharedSection parameter to limit
size of a non-interactive desktop heap allocation
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;318677
mentioned if only because it confirms that "You cannot check the
usage status of the desktop heap while an application is running"
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;126962
very old, mentions how NT3.5 had a much smaller heap allocation
than did NT 3.1 (same as what is now current) in order to "increase
performance". My gosh, did them walk this as a linked list !!
--
Roger Abell
Microsoft MVP (Windows Security)
MCSE (W2k3,W2k,Nt4) MCDBA
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103841900.970701.219820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hmm, something bothers me. Although this is likely our problem, it
seems hard to believe that their is a fixed size "system wide 48 mb
buffer" that all desktops are allocated from.
Can this 48 mb buffer be increased?
I am afraid if I tinker with it, some of my services will not properly
run.
Thanx
Julian
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Roger Abell
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:29 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
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|
It is pretty easy to misread. This reg key controls the limits
for a session, that is a winstation. The 48 meg is systemwide
pool from which all desktops get their piece as controlled by
this reg key.
--
Roger
"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> wrote in message
news:%23YPBNoU6EHA.2156@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | "Roger Abell" <mvpNOSpam@asu.edu> wrote in message
news:Ok8pqdU6EHA.2016@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
That is exactly the got ya here. AFAIK the limit is hard-wired
and was set back when memory was much more limited and
expensive, and when systems were single user machines.
The issue is how many winstation desktops are there on your
running system as it seems you may need to increase this
(or to figure out why the app is consuming so much heap and
adjust design so objects are released at earliest opportunity)
but that increase in size of each impacts the total number of
allocations you have available. I would be glad to find out
there is a doc'd way to adjust this 48 meg size, but I have not
run on that info.
Did I misread or isn't this what you referenced article
describes? (How to change these heaps...)
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=184802
This may actually help my 1 GIG system that has trouble
with the program which allocates 10,000 GDI and Handle
objects.
--
Herb Martin
--
Roger Abell
Microsoft MVP (Windows Security)
MCSE (W2k3,W2k,Nt4) MCDBA
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103841900.970701.219820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hmm, something bothers me. Although this is likely our problem, it
seems hard to believe that their is a fixed size "system wide 48 mb
buffer" that all desktops are allocated from.
Can this 48 mb buffer be increased?
I am afraid if I tinker with it, some of my services will not properly
run.
Thanx
Julian
|
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| Back to top |
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Herb Martin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:50 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
"Roger Abell" <mvpNOSpam@asu.edu> wrote in message
news:OinPM9U6EHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | It is pretty easy to misread. This reg key controls the limits
for a session, that is a winstation. The 48 meg is systemwide
pool from which all desktops get their piece as controlled by
this reg key.
|
Do we think such problems are due mostly to the
system wide limit or the individual winstation?
(Most people on a non-TS machine would be using
one WinStation and one DeskTop -- ok, technically
a couple of desktops since the Logon Screen and I
believe the Screensaver security are technically 2
others.)
I haven't written any WinStation code for years but
my guess would be that TS sessions are run in
separate WinStations or at least separate desktops.
--
Herb Martin
| Quote: |
--
Roger
"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> wrote in message
news:%23YPBNoU6EHA.2156@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Roger Abell" <mvpNOSpam@asu.edu> wrote in message
news:Ok8pqdU6EHA.2016@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
That is exactly the got ya here. AFAIK the limit is hard-wired
and was set back when memory was much more limited and
expensive, and when systems were single user machines.
The issue is how many winstation desktops are there on your
running system as it seems you may need to increase this
(or to figure out why the app is consuming so much heap and
adjust design so objects are released at earliest opportunity)
but that increase in size of each impacts the total number of
allocations you have available. I would be glad to find out
there is a doc'd way to adjust this 48 meg size, but I have not
run on that info.
Did I misread or isn't this what you referenced article
describes? (How to change these heaps...)
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=184802
This may actually help my 1 GIG system that has trouble
with the program which allocates 10,000 GDI and Handle
objects.
--
Herb Martin
--
Roger Abell
Microsoft MVP (Windows Security)
MCSE (W2k3,W2k,Nt4) MCDBA
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103841900.970701.219820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hmm, something bothers me. Although this is likely our problem, it
seems hard to believe that their is a fixed size "system wide 48 mb
buffer" that all desktops are allocated from.
Can this 48 mb buffer be increased?
I am afraid if I tinker with it, some of my services will not
properly
run.
Thanx
Julian
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| Back to top |
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Roger Abell [MVP]
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:17 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> wrote in message
news:u310yOW6EHA.2568@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | "Roger Abell" <mvpNOSpam@asu.edu> wrote in message
news:OinPM9U6EHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
It is pretty easy to misread. This reg key controls the limits
for a session, that is a winstation. The 48 meg is systemwide
pool from which all desktops get their piece as controlled by
this reg key.
Do we think such problems are due mostly to the
system wide limit or the individual winstation?
|
Indeed. That is the key question the OP's team must face,
assuming we have found their root issue that is.
It would seem they should be able to reason out which,
exhaustion of the pool or of an account's allocation, is
operative based on what they know of their "wall" behaviors.
--
Roger |
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Herb Martin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:00 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
| Quote: | Indeed. That is the key question the OP's team must face,
assuming we have found their root issue that is.
It would seem they should be able to reason out which,
exhaustion of the pool or of an account's allocation, is
operative based on what they know of their "wall" behaviors.
|
I don't think they are even looking at counters yet --
all requests for detail get more stuff about software
and hardware models not the memory usage and other
counter stuff I (we, I presume) would be looking at
were we there. |
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Roger Abell [MVP]
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:38 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> wrote in message
news:uucESZX6EHA.2804@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | Indeed. That is the key question the OP's team must face,
assuming we have found their root issue that is.
It would seem they should be able to reason out which,
exhaustion of the pool or of an account's allocation, is
operative based on what they know of their "wall" behaviors.
I don't think they are even looking at counters yet --
all requests for detail get more stuff about software
and hardware models not the memory usage and other
counter stuff I (we, I presume) would be looking at
were we there.
Well, one key piece of info that would be quick is how many |
accounts show up as process contexts under the User column
in taskmanager. If it is not quite many then they likely are dealing
with the limit impacted by second number in the parameter of key
discussed in first KB about user32/kernel32 (again, if this is
their culprit), but the question is whether to address it in the app
design/quality or by increase of the parameter value, or both.
I know I have increased on my workstations just to keep IE from
fudging out on me after too many windows are open, but then there
are usually only about 8 or 10 different identities owning processes
(mostly due to SQL, IIS, and SFU).
--
ra |
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Bodger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:10 pm Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
Let me know what parameters and other things you want me to report on
and I will be glad to report on it.
Regarding the Task Manager, today it is quiet (Christmas Eve)
Our user 14 processes (this will be steady)
LOCAL SERVICE 1 process
NETWORK SERVICE 2 processes
SYSTEM 32 processes
Note the webserver and the perls that support the web server run in the
SYSTEM process, and from our performance logs, we start having troubles
when we get upwards of 50 perls per minute running. Typically those
perls come and go quickly but a few stick around so I do not have an
analysis as to how many are active at one time.
Thanx
Julian a.k.a Bodger |
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Roger Abell
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:20 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
That makes it sound like it is the per-context allocation
rather than the system-wide pool.
I am really, really tending to believe that you need to
look at what might be leaking from the perl routines.
If you are not seeing other principals then you are having
these all run by IIS in a worker process pools of a single
principal.
Have you looked at the features of IIS 6 that let you
cycle the worker pools on different triggers, including
how long they have lived ??
--
Roger Abell
Microsoft MVP (Windows Security)
MCSE (W2k3,W2k,Nt4) MCDBA
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103908200.307438.15620@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Let me know what parameters and other things you want me to report on
and I will be glad to report on it.
Regarding the Task Manager, today it is quiet (Christmas Eve)
Our user 14 processes (this will be steady)
LOCAL SERVICE 1 process
NETWORK SERVICE 2 processes
SYSTEM 32 processes
Note the webserver and the perls that support the web server run in the
SYSTEM process, and from our performance logs, we start having troubles
when we get upwards of 50 perls per minute running. Typically those
perls come and go quickly but a few stick around so I do not have an
analysis as to how many are active at one time.
Thanx
Julian a.k.a Bodger
|
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| Back to top |
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Herb Martin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:38 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
| Quote: | Note the webserver and the perls that support the web server run in the
SYSTEM process,
|
That would be "System account" -- there is no
system process per se.
| Quote: | and from our performance logs, we start having troubles
when we get upwards of 50 perls per minute running.
|
I have previously mentioned memory usage by process,
and both Paged and Nonpaged Pool, especially the latter.
(If you use the TaskMgr to see these, then just the top few
users when you sort by each column will likely be of
interest.)
You might also note the leading GDI objects and Handles
processes.
| Quote: | Typically those
perls come and go quickly but a few stick around so I do not have an
analysis as to how many are active at one time.
|
You might also try this problem on the IIS group --
although I use Perl regularly, I am NOT allocating
so many instance through the web or other server.
I am not sending you away, just pointing out where
more expertise may lie.
--
Herb Martin
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103908200.307438.15620@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Let me know what parameters and other things you want me to report on
and I will be glad to report on it.
Regarding the Task Manager, today it is quiet (Christmas Eve)
Our user 14 processes (this will be steady)
LOCAL SERVICE 1 process
NETWORK SERVICE 2 processes
SYSTEM 32 processes
Thanx
Julian a.k.a Bodger
|
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| Back to top |
|
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Bodger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:27 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
We use the Sun WebServer 6.1 not IIS. We talked about the Paged and
Non-Paged Pool earlier, I will start recording those parameters as well
as I can.
Thanx
Julian |
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| Back to top |
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Herb Martin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:05 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103927265.507079.291880@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | We use the Sun WebServer 6.1 not IIS. We talked about the Paged and
Non-Paged Pool earlier, I will start recording those parameters as well
as I can.
|
Fine contact those who use Sun, but my thinking
was along the lines of asking people who regularly
run large numbers of Perl processes on Windows
server.
Recording those paramenters may not be as important
as just seeing which process(es) has(have) the most
of those resources in use.
Recording is good, but getting a feel of what is
happening may be enough. |
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Roger Abell
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:54 am Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
Just keep in mind that in the post with multiple KB citations,
the one indicates that one cannot monitor desktop heap use,
so perfmon will apparently only get you so far relative to
that aspect. I imagine you have to hook up the debugger.
--
Roger
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103927265.507079.291880@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | We use the Sun WebServer 6.1 not IIS. We talked about the Paged and
Non-Paged Pool earlier, I will start recording those parameters as well
as I can.
Thanx
Julian
|
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| Back to top |
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Bomber
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
I read all the documents that you listed. I also have an issue with the
memory management. Mu issue revolves around article 184802, cause 2.
My server is Windows 2000 (all versions).
The appllication I run enables me to reduce the heap value from the default
512 to 128. Which enables 160+ applications to be ran. However this
cripples other appilcations such as our Network backup.
It seems the solution is to change the 'system-wide buffer of 48Mb
(user32.dll)', how can this be modified?
Regards
Richard
"Roger Abell" wrote:
| Quote: | Hey, check this ancient KB out
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;156484
as it indicates that (then) perl multithreaded apps were known to
show desktop heap leaks if processes terminated prematurely.
Anyway, I had to poke around as the being hard wired seemed
unlikely - undoc'd maybe, but hardwired no. I think this little
bit of info published for terminal server may be the light . . .
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;840342
I would be pretty cautious about fooling with this until you have
determined that it is not actually a misbehavior that is causing
excess heap consumption, and until you have figured answer to
the next . . .
However, notice that your issue may be the number of desktops
consumed, making you run of the buffer pool, rather than any
one desktop running out of its allocation. In fact, this might
seem more likely given some of what you have said about that
wall you run into.
For IIS specific issues take a look at
cgi apps in IIS pre-v6
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;217202
conserving desktop consumption in IIS 6
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;831135
Other related KBs uncovered :
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;142676
which indicates use of the third SharedSection parameter to limit
size of a non-interactive desktop heap allocation
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;318677
mentioned if only because it confirms that "You cannot check the
usage status of the desktop heap while an application is running"
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;126962
very old, mentions how NT3.5 had a much smaller heap allocation
than did NT 3.1 (same as what is now current) in order to "increase
performance". My gosh, did them walk this as a linked list !!
--
Roger Abell
Microsoft MVP (Windows Security)
MCSE (W2k3,W2k,Nt4) MCDBA
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103841900.970701.219820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hmm, something bothers me. Although this is likely our problem, it
seems hard to believe that their is a fixed size "system wide 48 mb
buffer" that all desktops are allocated from.
Can this 48 mb buffer be increased?
I am afraid if I tinker with it, some of my services will not properly
run.
Thanx
Julian
|
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|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger Abell
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject:
Re: User Memory Quotas |
|
|
Noop, but good question.
I have not found public info on this, but the mention of the
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;840342
(TS in W2k3 edition at least) reg values in the
ccs\control\Session manager\memory management
reg key sound real close to the ones controlling the heap.
You may need to open a support incident with PSS if this
has high impact on your environment.
--
Roger Abell
Microsoft MVP (Windows Security)
MCSE (W2k3,W2k,Nt4) MCDBA
"Bomber" <Bomber@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:BBCA57AB-4CE9-483B-8EA0-F6E49FA71D56@microsoft.com...
| Quote: | I read all the documents that you listed. I also have an issue with the
memory management. Mu issue revolves around article 184802, cause 2.
My server is Windows 2000 (all versions).
The appllication I run enables me to reduce the heap value from the
default
512 to 128. Which enables 160+ applications to be ran. However this
cripples other appilcations such as our Network backup.
It seems the solution is to change the 'system-wide buffer of 48Mb
(user32.dll)', how can this be modified?
Regards
Richard
"Roger Abell" wrote:
Hey, check this ancient KB out
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;156484
as it indicates that (then) perl multithreaded apps were known to
show desktop heap leaks if processes terminated prematurely.
Anyway, I had to poke around as the being hard wired seemed
unlikely - undoc'd maybe, but hardwired no. I think this little
bit of info published for terminal server may be the light . . .
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;840342
I would be pretty cautious about fooling with this until you have
determined that it is not actually a misbehavior that is causing
excess heap consumption, and until you have figured answer to
the next . . .
However, notice that your issue may be the number of desktops
consumed, making you run of the buffer pool, rather than any
one desktop running out of its allocation. In fact, this might
seem more likely given some of what you have said about that
wall you run into.
For IIS specific issues take a look at
cgi apps in IIS pre-v6
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;217202
conserving desktop consumption in IIS 6
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;831135
Other related KBs uncovered :
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;142676
which indicates use of the third SharedSection parameter to limit
size of a non-interactive desktop heap allocation
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;318677
mentioned if only because it confirms that "You cannot check the
usage status of the desktop heap while an application is running"
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;126962
very old, mentions how NT3.5 had a much smaller heap allocation
than did NT 3.1 (same as what is now current) in order to "increase
performance". My gosh, did them walk this as a linked list !!
--
Roger Abell
Microsoft MVP (Windows Security)
MCSE (W2k3,W2k,Nt4) MCDBA
"Bodger" <jbrown@jlbprof.com> wrote in message
news:1103841900.970701.219820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hmm, something bothers me. Although this is likely our problem, it
seems hard to believe that their is a fixed size "system wide 48 mb
buffer" that all desktops are allocated from.
Can this 48 mb buffer be increased?
I am afraid if I tinker with it, some of my services will not properly
run.
Thanx
Julian
|
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|
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